12/16 pesky lil #%^

[steveooo]

Originally Posted by SquidJig

I recently replaced an old 6x Jr and I swear the new one is heavier and definitely doesn't kick like the old one. Do 6x Jrs come in different weights? And do you really have to buy several irons to get one that swims well?

You may have had a 6XJR Lite. 6XJr's used to come in lite and heavy. Not sure if they still make the lites though, I haven't seen any in stores lately. I still have one 6XJR lite that I got as a handout @ the Moyer tourney 2 years ago. The lites are about 1/2 the weight of the heavies. They are the same exact shape, and have no markings to indicate the difference. Same with the 6X's, they both come in heavy and lite. I got a few 6X lites at the Moyer tourney this year.

As far as picking a jig that swims, I think it has to more with the shape than the weight, plus a few other factors like the size of the hole where the ring attaches. Yes, they are die cast, but there are multiple molds, and die-casting can be very inconsistent. Each mold is slightly different, and true iron purists know what to look for. I'm no purist.

If you care, here is a vid I don't have the patience to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_-KH438lFY

Here is a pic of some of my jigs. From the left, the 1st, 3rd and 5th jigs are lites, the 2nd, 4th, and 6th jigs are heavies.

No huge difference in shapes in the similar irons. Some have bigger holes, some have more tapered ends, and some have sharper edges on the topside, but nothing major. Only big different is that the lites are about 1/2 the weight. This is intentional, not due to accidental variations in the alloy mix. The 5th jig has some slough metal on the back, a perfect example of the slight differences that can happen in die-casting.





I like the Sumo Jr or Tady 4/0 as a deadstick, and the salas 6X Jr as a Yo-Yo.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by steveooo

From the left, the 1st, 3rd and 5th jigs are lites, the 2nd, 4th, and 6th jigs are heavies...... Only big different is that the lites are about 1/2 the weight. This is intentional, not due to accidental variations in the alloy mix. The 5th jig has some slough metal on the back, a perfect example of the slight differences that can happen in die-casting.

Cool stuff!!!

You can tell just by looking at the lettering that the the lights and heavies were poured in different molds.

Well you got me Stevooo..... I honestly I had no idea that Salas poured lite versions of the 6XJR in a lighter alloy. I only use the heavy ones, and when I checked mine all the same weight and from the same mold.

If the lites are half the weight, then obviously they are made from another alloy. So I was on the right track even if I had no idea they intentionally cast different versions of the jig in different alloys.

Wow half the weight... Hows the action? You would think it with that difference in weight it wouldn't be that hard to tell them apart.

Now you got me wondering if the previous "good" jig he had was actually a lite version, or just a slightly different heavy version with better action.

As to what I posted about inconsistency in casting alloys: I stick to my guns. I mean I've seen hundreds of thousands of pounds of metal poured, poured much of it myself, and I can guarantee you that even when buying the best metal from the best suppliers your always going to find variations in batches of any given alloy.

As you say there are a ton of variables involved in casting, how hot you pour, how clean your equipment is, oxides, slag, shrink, chasing and cleanup etc.... trust me I have seen it all, but I'd still say that discrepancy in alloy composition explains a lot of the variations I have seen over the years.

Like I said about stock Tady45's once in a while you get one that won't run right at all, sometimes you get one that is just absolutley amazing, and most of them are somewhere in between. I've sat there more then once looking at two absolutely identical T45's one that ran great and one the did not run right at all and thought WTF....Just based on my experience it would not surprise me at all if slight variations in the casting alloy could of caused that inconsistency.

Honestly the biggest Jig mystery to me is why the hell did Tady change the original TLC from the killer anchovy sized swimmer to the fat little thing it is now? The original was such a good Albacore and Bluefin jig!!! WTF were they thinking!!!

Steveoo you seem to know a lot more about jigs then me. I'd love to hear the history and rational about that one

Jim

[GregAndrew]

Another difference between jigs of the same type is that there is not one mold that produces them, but several or many of them. If they poured them one at a time you would not see racks of them in all tackle stores.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by GregAndrew

Another difference between jigs of the same type is that there is not one mold that produces them, but several or many of them. If they poured them one at a time you would not see racks of them in all tackle stores.

It all depends how you define one or single Greg.

A single cavity die is a mold that makes only one object per pour. You rarely see those kind of molds or dies in the casting industry. Like you say they are inefficient because they only make one object at a time.

Technically the molds used for this type of casting are called dies and they are two part (or more) molds made by machinists or more precisely mold makers out of alloy tool steel, and in this case what you have is a multiple cavity mold. Evan though it's probably still just a simple two part die, it's still a die where a single pour produces multiple numbers of identical jigs.

In order to get that die they took an original 6XJR (a "blank") that they wanted cast to a mold maker, and then specified how many pieces they wanted the die to produce. That mold maker then made the die exactly duplicating the blank for each cavity space or piece unit in the mold.

Mold making is serious business, the guys that do it really know their shit, and a good mold maker will duplicate that original blank within thousandths of an inch for each piece in the mold.. Any flaws or idiosyncrasies in the blank will end up in every single one of them so you better make sure the blank is correct before you ever give it to the mold maker.


Take a look at the bigger 6X jigs in this picture.




Now looking at those bigger 6X jigs I see two distinct separate production runs or dies.

With the first die the blank was probably made from metal, steel brass or aluminum. To put the lettering on it they took a set of letter/number stamps which are essentually hand held punches and smacked the "6X SALAS" in with a hammer. Now because the punches were hand held the Salas in not perfectly straight, and it looks like they double struck the X creating a flaw in it.

When they took that blank to the mold maker he faithfully duplicated those exact letter flaws into every single cavity in the die so every jig that comes from that die has those exact same letter flaws.

Now look at the other 6X's lettering. Those letters are perfect because it was made with a different die. With that die they had a machinist machine the letters into the blank so they are perfect and straight. So when they took that blank to the mold maker to have the die made he faithfully duplicated those exact letters into every single cavity in the mold so every jig that comes from that mold has those exact same machined looking letters.

I imagine the first die is the earlier model, and that the first blank was simply hand made.

The second is the later die when they had more money to spare and wanted to make superior die for a cleaner more professional looking product. They probably hired a machinist to make that second blank, so naturally the lettering is machined rather then stamped.

I also find it interesting that the lighter 6x jigs were poured with the older mold which makes perfect sense to me, since they no longer make them, and even the lite 6XJR pictured has hand stamped letters, suggesting once again it's an old jig from an early production run.

How old are they? who knows? I certainly don't. Salas jigs have been around forever, they probably updated their dies years ago.

Just for fun I dug through some of my older jigs and found two jigs with the older hand stamped letters. A really old 7X lite I no longer fish, and an ancient heavy 6X with those exact same letter flaws as Stevooos.



They just don't make them like that any more....

So at any rate when I said the same mold, I was not suggesting they came from a same single cavity in a mold where only one thing is produced like a sinker mold but instead a multi cavity die or dies where all the pieces created by those dies are identical because they all came from or were derived from the same original blank.

In casting we think of these like generations. A first generation object would come from a original die created from the original blank, subsequent generations are those from a die made from a different blank, or dies made from a blank derived from a first generation casting. They could of and probably did make multiple dies off each blank, but all the jigs they produced from those dies would still be virtually identical or of the same generation if that makes any sense.

Think of die like an upside down tree where the trunk is open and each leaf is a jig. The metal pours in the trunk then flows down into the leaves (jigs) through the branches (sprues), and though there are many leaves (jigs), they are all pretty much identical, because they were all created from the same pattern. It doesn't matter how many trees you have, or even how many leaves are on the trees, as long as the leaves are patterned from the same blank they are essentually from the same mold.

Jim

[bigbarrels]

Congrats Andy! Sure beats this type of morning workout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWng0Equoe0

[james92026]

Hey..my gf has one of those (or I think thats what it is)...

Originally Posted by bigbarrels

Congrats Andy! Sure beats this type of morning workout

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWng0Equoe0

[GregAndrew]

My point was that it is not likely that the makers paid high dollar for the fine mold making that you refer to (they are not producing these for rocket sceintists). I don't think the inventer went to the casting maker and told him "After years of shaving and adding thousandths of an inch here and there, I have finally made the perfect jig. Now I need you to reproduce it exactly to within 1/10,000 of an inch". On the contrary, I would bet that they were generally happy with the way there jig shape swam, and wanted to get it to market. On closer examination of the same jigs, you can see differences between the 2 Lite 6Xs (jigs #3 and #5). The holes on either end of the one on the left are larger than the one on the right. There is also a difference in the Ss on either end of "SALAS".

[SquidJig]

Ooops! I didn't see dorado50's post. But I still want to plug the video. The guys who made it did a great job.

Originally Posted by steveooo

If you care, here is a vid I don't have the patience to watch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_-KH438lFY

This is a great video, steveooo. Thanks for the link.

Key things to look for: uneven 'hips', the wide points of the jig and big or off-center front holes. Hold the iron by the ring and swing it around in a circle. It should swing smoothly and evenly. If the front hole isn't quite right, jam a tool into it and offset the hole. There's also a lot of other good info in the video about types of irons and techniques. Definitely worth 14 minutes of anyone's time.

[Fiskadoro]

Originally Posted by SquidJig

Key things to look for: uneven 'hips', the wide points of the jig and big or off-center front holes.

I like it in the vid when he says: " Went kinda crazy the belt sander" I also like it when he's holding the Killer and says: "If the hole is really huge like that, I don't care if it's off to one side or not." I hear that. Killer jigs have those big holes specifically to give them more action. Great surface jigs.

As I said above: With casting it's the chasing or the cleanup that creates irregularities or idiosyncrasies. What he's talking about is how much they sanded it or if they drilled the hole off to one side, he's talking about the chasing. He likes jigs that have irregular hips because they sanded one side more then the other or an offset hole do to the fact the drill twisted off center. That's not a reflection of the mold so much as the hand of whoever is doing the chasing or cleanup.

I've got a buddy Mike who's really into the irregular jig thing. His take is that if the jig off center due the hole being to one side or the fact the sanded more on one side then the other, it then will have a more erratic kick or an irregular action which makes it more attractive to the fish.

I don't know if you've experienced this but sometimes with surface Iron I find the fish just want a steady retrieve, but other times if you bounce the tip around and get a little more erratic action out of the jig you will get more strikes.

I've found this to be case with other lures as well. Before the swimbait craze we used to fish big Cordell 7" Redfins for big stripers.

Out of the box with a straight retrieve they have a very nice rapala like swimming action, but take the same Redfin drill a 1/4" hole in it a inch from the front and it will fill with water and have a completely different action. It increases the weight so you can throw it a lot farther but it also makes it sit deeper in the water and if you retrieve it with short jerks you can get an excellent walk the dog action out of it with the lure swinging back and forth subsurface. Total old-school you hardly ever see anyone doing this any more but it really kills them at times, and I've caught Yellows numerous Calicos and a ton of barracuda using this same trick as well. The thing is once you've drilled one it will never swim normally again so if you look in my box about half the Redfins are drilled and the rest are still stock. When they want irregular dramatic action I use the drilled ones if they want a smooth swimmer I go stock.

In a similar manner I like to vary my retrieve when fishing Iron until I see a pattern and then I fish it the way they want it. I think it's the same with irregular jigs like he describes. I own them. There are times that they do work better, and honestly there are times when a more stock jig works better. It all depends what they want. Ultimately it's the jig you believe, that you fish the most that get's bit.

To me the whole irregular jig thing is not as interesting as the reason why two non-irregular, virtually identical jigs will sometimes have different actions. I mean if there is some obvious mechanical difference you can see it makes sense that that mechanical thing, that visible difference in the jig is creating a different action. What's more interesting to me if there is no obvious difference, yet they still have different actions. That's a little more of a mystery.

Jim